Utopia

Utopia

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by Sir Thomas More

~ ~ ~

The definition of pleasure, False and counterfeit pleasure

Pleasure they call every motion and state of the body or mind wherein man hath naturally delectation. Appetite they join to nature, and that not without a good cause. For like as, not only the senses, but also right reason coveteth whatsoever is naturally pleasant, so that it may be gotten without wrong or injury, not letting or debarring a greater pleasure, nor causing painful labour, even so those things that men by vain imagination do feign against nature to be pleasant (as though it lay in their power to change the things, as they do the names of things) all such pleasures they believe to be of so small help and furtherance to felicity, that they count them great let and hindrance. Because that in whom they have once taken place, all his mind they possess with a false opinion of pleasure. So that there is no place left for true and natural delectations. For there be many things, which of their own nature contain no pleasantness: yea the most part of them much grief and sorrow. And yet through the perverse and malicious flickering enticement of lewd and unhonest desires, be taken not only for special and sovereign pleasures, but also be counted amoung the chief causes of life. In this counterfeit kind of pleasure they put them that I spake of before; which the better gown they have on, the better men they think themselves. In the which thing they do twice err. For they be no less deceived in that they think their gown the better, than they be, in that they think themselves the better. For if you consider the profitable use of the garment, why should wool of a finer spun thread be thought better, than the wool of a coarse spun thread? Yet they, as though the one did pass the other by nature, and not by their mistaking, advance themselves, and think the price of their own persons thereby greatly increased. And therefore the honour, which in a coarse gown they durst not have looked for, they require, as it were of duty, for their finer gown`s sake. And if they be passed by without reverence, they take it angrily and disdainfully. And again is it not a like madness to take a pride in vain and unprofitable honours? For what natural or true pleasure dost thou take of another man`s bare head, or bowed knees? Will this ease the pain of thy knees, or remedy the frenzy of thy head? In this image of counterfeit pleasure, they be of a marvellous madness, which for the opinion of nobility, rejoice much in their own conceit. Because it was their fortune to come of such ancestors, whose stock of long time hath been counted rich (for now nobility is nothing else) specially rich in lands. And though their ancestors left them not one foot of land, yet they think themselves not the less noble therefore of one hair.


The kinds of true pleasure, The pleasures of the body, Bodily health, The pleasures of the mind

They make divers kinds of true pleasures. For some they attribute to the soul, and some to the body. To the soul they give intelligence and that delectation that cometh of the contemplation of truth. Hereunto is joined the pleasant remembrance of the good life past. The pleasure of the body they divide into two parts. The first is when delectation is sensibly felt and perceived. The second part of bodily pleasure, they say, is that which consisteth and resteth in the quiet and upright state of the body. And that truly is every man`s own proper health, intermingled and disturbed with no grief. For this, if it be not let nor assaulted with no grief, is delectable of itself, though it be moved with no external or outward pleasure. For though it be not so plain and manifest to the sense, as the greedy lust of eating and drinking, yet nevertheless many take it for the chiefest pleasure. All the Utopians grant it to be a right great pleasure, and as you would say, the foundation and ground of all pleasures, as which even alone is able to make the state and condition of life delectable and pleasant. And it being once taken away, there is no place left for any pleasure. For to be without grief having health, that they call insensibility, and not pleasure. The Utopians have long ago rejected and condemned the opinion of them which said that steadfast and quiet health (for this question also hath been diligently debated among them) ought not therefore to be counted a pleasure, because they say it cannot be presently and sensibly perceived and felt by some outward motion. But of the contrary part now they agree almost all in this, that health is a most sovereign pleasure. For seeing that in sickness (say they) is grief, which is a mortal enemy to pleasure, even as sickness is to health, why should not then pleasure be in the quietness of health? For they say it maketh nothing to this matter, whether you say that sickness is a grief, or that in sickness is grief, for all cometh to one purpose. For whether health be a pleasure itself, or a necessary cause of pleasure, as fire is of heat, truly both ways it followeth that they cannot be without pleasure that be in perfect health. Furthermore whilest we eat (say they) then health, which began to be impaired, fighteth by the help of food against hunger. In the which fight, whilest health by little and little getteth the upper hand, that same proceeding, and (as ye would say) that onwardness to the wonted strength, ministreth that pleasure, whereby we be so refreshed. Health therefore, which in the conflict is joyful, shall it not be merry, when it hath gotten the victory? But as soon as it hath recovered the pristinate strength, which thing only in all the fight it coveted, shall it incontinent be astonished? Nor shall it not know nor embrace the own wealth and goodness? For that it is said, health cannot be felt: this, they think, is nothing true. For what man waking, say they, feeleth not himself in health, but he that is not? Is there any man so possessed with stonish insensibility, or with the sleeping sickness, that he will not grant health to be acceptable to him, and delectable? But what other thing is delectation, than that which by another name is called pleasure? They embrace chiefly the pleasures of the mind. For them they count the chiefest and most principal of all. The chief part of them they think doth come of the exercise of virtue, and conscience of good life. Of these pleasures that the body ministreth, they give the pre-eminence to health. For the delight of eating and drinking, and whatsoever hath any like pleasantness, they determine to be pleasures much to be desired, but no other ways than for health`s sake. For such things of their own proper nature be not pleasant, but in that they resist sickness privily stealing on. Therefore like as it is a wise man`s part, rather to avoid sickness, than to wish for medicines, and rather to drive away and put to flight careful griefs, than to call for comfort: so it is much better not to need this kind of pleasure, than in curing the contrary grief to be eased of the same. The which kind of pleasure, if any man take for his felicity, that man must needs grant, that then he shall be in most felicity, if he live that life, which is led in continual hunger, thirst, itching, eating, drinking, scratching and rubbing. The which life how not only foul it is, but also miserable and wretched who perceiveth not? These doubtless be the basest pleasures of all, as impure and imperfect. For they never come, but accompanied with their contrary griefs. As with the pleasure of eating is joined hunger, and that after no very equal sort. For of these two the grief is both the more vehement, and also of longer continuance. For it riseth before the pleasure, and endeth not until the pleasure die with it. Wherefore such pleasures they think not greatly to be set by, but in that they be necessary. Howbeit they have delight also in these, and thankfully acknowledge the tender love of mother nature, which with most pleasant delectation allureth her children to that, which of necessity they be driven often to use. For how wretched and miserable should our life be, if these daily griefs of hunger and thirst could not be driven away, but with bitter potions and sour medicines, as the other diseases be, wherewith we be seldomer troubled? But beauty, strength, nimbleness, these as peculiar and pleasant gifts of nature they make much of. But those pleasures which be received by the ears, the eyes and the nose, which nature willeth to be proper and peculiar to man (for no other kind of living beasts doth behold the fairness and the beauty of the world, or is moved with any respect of savours, but only for the diversity of meats, neither perceiveth the concordant and discordant distances of sounds and tunes) these pleasures, I say, they accept and allow as certain pleasant rejoicings of life. But in all things this precaution they use, that a less pleasure hinder not a bigger, and that the pleasure be no cause of displeasure, which they think to follow of necessity, if the pleasure be unhonest. But yet to despise the comeliness of beauty, to waste the bodily strength, to turn nimbleness into sluggishness, to consume and make feeble the body with fasting, to do injury to health, and to reject the other pleasant motions of nature unless a man neglect these his commodities, whilest he doth with a fervent zeal procure the wealth of others, or the common profit, for the which pleasure forborn, he is in hope of a greater pleasure at God`s hand; else for a vain shadow of virtue, for the wealth and profit of no man, to punish himself, or to the intent he may be able courageously to suffer adversities, which perchance shall never come to him; this to do they think it a point of extreme madness, and a token of a man cruelly minded towards himself, and unkind toward nature, as one so disdaining to be in her danger, that he renounceth and refuseth all her benefits.

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Ne znam! Jel' ti gotivis Thomasa Mora, posto onaj dio s ovcama i tako dalje, mislim sta reci....ovce vladaju.
Salu na stranu, citala sam dio, zbog predmeta koji sam imala na fax-u i polozila. Koja je poenta tvog posta?



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baxuz! ::Ne znam!

Trebala si na ovome stati. Razz

baxuz! ::Jel' ti gotivis Thomasa Mora, posto onaj dio s ovcama i tako dalje, mislim sta reci....ovce vladaju.

Postujem svaciji rad, pa tako i njegov. Rijec "gotivim" je nepravilno upotrebljena ovdje a inace ne razumijem njeno znacenje u nasem savremenom jeziku. smešak


baxuz! ::Salu na stranu, citala sam dio, zbog predmeta koji sam imala na fax-u i polozila.

Koji dio si procitala? O ovcama ... ili jos nesto? Nemoguce da nisi nista procitala citajuci?!

baxuz! ::Koja je poenta tvog posta?

Moj post nema poentu - u tome i jeste poenta. Ili moze da ima, jednu ili 101. Zavisi kako ko shvata text koji procita (ako ga procita - a TU je za citanje).
Forum knjizevnost ima mjesta za rasprave o djelima i razmjenu misljenja ali tek kada se neko javi sa razumnim komentarom. Ova knjiga je napisana (circa) 1516. Da li to tebi ista znaci? Vjerovatno ne, ali mnogim ljudima u to vrijeme pa cak i poslije je znacilo. Covjek je htio da se oglasi protiv/ili za tadasnje drustvo, da ga kritikuje.

P.S. Samo da dodam da su ljudi pametniji od mene ili tebe, ili obe nas zajedno, odlucili da ovu knjigu stampaju kao klasik ... da li ti to ista znaci? Na kraju krajeva, ko smo ti ili/i ja da kudimo njega ili/i njegov rad? Kad napisemo nesto slicno ovome, da bude priznato nesto kao ovo njegovo djelo - mozda ... ali do tada. I niko ne kaze da tebi mora da se ovo djelo dopadne iz bilo kog razloga, ili da ti shvatis poentu istog (bilo bi fino, ali ako ne ... o Boze moj, sta da se radi). Ista knjiga moze da ostavi drugaciji utisak na istu osobu kada se cita u drugo vrijeme (npr. sada ako je nisi shvatila, ko zna, mozda je shvatis kada/ako je budes citala za par godina). Svaka biblioteka ima masu razlicitih stvari, pa se zato i mi trudimo da imamo sto vise varijacija, po mogucnosti kvalitetnih.

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Ne, pogresno si me shvatila, ja nemam nista protiv Thomasa Mora, cak mi je super njegova knjiga. Nego me interesovalo jel' ti to najbolja knjiga koju si procitala i kakvu si poentu izvukla iz nje. Nemam nista protiv da se izrazavas kako hoces, prema tome to ocekujem i od drugih ljudi...
Svako ima pravo govora i pisanja, a ja volim pisati i govoriti rijec ''gotiviti'' to je moj izbor, a znaci da ti se nesto svidja...eto tol'ko od mene. Ca;o)s!!!!

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Ne znam baš koliko se ovo slaže sa temom, ali meni zaista mnogo bolje pašu antiutopije nego utopije. Recimo, "1984", "Gospodar muva", "Vrli novi svijet"... Utopije su mi prilično naivne. Recimo ona o Eldoradu u "Kandidu"... Možda baš stoga i nijesam čitala Mora. Ipak, stidim se zbog toga!

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@plaha

Bojim se da ne razumijem sta hoces da kazes. Citala sam i Kandida, i po mom nekom shvatanju knjiga je vise "utopijski" oprijedjeljena skoro pa do samoga kraja. To jest sa tim nekim "optimistickim" stavom glavnog junaka. Jeste da ima nasilja ali bas taj dio o El Doradu - gdje ima zlata toliko da se djeca igraju sa njim, da natovare, sta ono bijase, ovce (?) pa da ponesu sa sobom - i imaju ga tada vise nego kralj Spanije (?). Malo naïvno - i malo utopijski. Kandide je u mojoj licnoj biblioteci jos od prije nekoliko godina dobio pocasno mjesto. Treba mi nekad taj njihov optimizam ("Sve se desava sa najboljim razlogom"). Ima onaj jedan citat o zenama ... o kad bi ga se sad mogla sjetiti ... (mozda kasnije, kad uzmem knjigu u ruke pa nadjem).

Mozda sam ja tako htjela da je razumijem (knjigu) jer ima stvarno sirok spektar tema koje pokriva; religiju, filozofiju, nauku, vladu ... pa cak i romantike ima ... ko zna, mozda sam ja jedna od onih sto zadrzi (za sebe) samo ono sto mi se dopada. smešak

Dodatak ...

"A modest woman may be once violated, but her virtue is greatly strenghened as a result." - Voltaire in Candide

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Koliko ja znam, Kandid je nastao kao Volterov odgovor na Lajbnicovu teoriju o našem svijetu kao "najboljem od svih mogućih svjetova". Volter konstantno u djelu parodira tu tezu... Ironiju i parodiju obožavam, zato mi je Kandid i draga knjiga, ali taj utopistički dio o Eldoradu mi je zaista bio pretjerano naivan.

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